The Roman Catholic Scandal (78 views) Subscribe   
  From:  NRAdittos    6/17/2002 2:10 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 25)  
 
  402.1  
 
The Roman Catholic Church Scandal: The Truth The Bishops Fear To Speak

Toogood Reports [Monday, June 17, 2002; 12:01 a.m. EST]
URL: http://ToogoodReports.com/ 

The recent scandals within the Catholic Church are quite a personal matter for me. This is not merely because I am a Catholic but because I am a former seminarian and have, in a certain sense, seen behind the veil. Anyone who has shared the same experiences within the Church has no doubt as to the cause of the sexual scandals.

Causes are precisely what we are not talking about. The media, already rather suspicious of things religious, things Christian and especially things Catholic, is content to unreflectively report scandal  never asking why these particular priests lapsed into such a moral morass. Given a murderer, an adulterous politician or a drug-addled movie star, the media will probe the causes of their tragic fall ad nauseum with a parade of psychological experts. But when they report that a priest has been accused of sexual improprieties, it is presented in a style so offhanded that one might be hearing the historical tale of a Nazi storm trooper shooting innocent women and children  a nameless, faceless agent of an evil institution, not worthy of further examination.

http://toogoodreports.com/column/general/rossi/20020617.htm 


 
 
  
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  From:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    6/22/2002 7:48 pm  
To:  NRAdittos    (2 of 25)  
 
  402.2 in reply to 402.1  
 
You are correct in that the reporting of the Catholic sex abuse scandal has been devoid of the usual froth the media kick up. One has to ask why.

I have many questions. 

1. If you substituted "Baptist evangelist" for "Catholic priest" and then were to have the media report a story of sexual abuse, how would it be handled? With the same pair of kid gloves?

2. If the Catholic Church hierarchy has been involved in a cover-up, how do they justify their complicity in an immoral and illegal act with their own published precepts? Wouldn't a reasonable and consistent church seek to purge immoral priests from their ranks?

3. If celibacy for priests is actually an outgrowth of a historic decision to prevent papal dynasties (by forbidding legal offspring) and if the Bible says a bishop is "husband of one wife" then how does the Catholic Church justify continuing the tradition of forbidding marriage to priests? Hasn't it contributed to mischief?

4. If Christ came back today and met with these leaders of the Catholic church, what would he say to them? What would he say to priests who pray in his name and who abused children or had affairs while under a vow of celibacy? 

5. What does this say to you about the Catholic church?  This isn't the first instance in history of the Church being lead the wrong way. (I'm thinking the Inquisition, forced conversions, and and...)

Sorry to make hard observations, but I think everyone who professes to love Christ and says he is Lord needs to ask these questions if they are a member. 
 
  
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  From:  NRAdittos    6/23/2002 5:54 am  
To:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    (3 of 25)  
 
  402.3 in reply to 402.2  
 
Your questions are valid. Down here where I live in south TX we are largely Hispanic and Catholic. The religion is mostly superstitious and build around rituals. Most of the people I've spoken with are in denial about the cover up etc. Catholic are raised not to question the church. To do so is a SIN against God.

There is no "if" about the cover up as it has gone on for decades. This is a religion that has paid out about one billion in law suits.

I wouldn't want to be the Pope or anyone in the hierarchy if Jesus came to visit.

How could anyone take communion from a priest while wondering where his hands have been the night before....SICK!

The Catholic church denied Mafia boss John Gotti a funeral mass but keeps homosexual offender as priest.

NRAdittos

 
 
  
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  From:  NRAdittos    6/23/2002 5:59 am  
To:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    (4 of 25)  
 
  402.4 in reply to 402.2  
 
THE CRISIS FACING the Roman Catholic hierarchy is the result of a gay subculture endemic in the seminaries. Mary Walsh reviews Michael Roses new book Goodbye Good Men.

 
 
  
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  From:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    6/23/2002 6:41 am  
To:  NRAdittos    (5 of 25)  
 
  402.5 in reply to 402.4  
 
The crisis facing the Catholic Church, I would propose, is NOT due to an edemic population of gay priests. That is just the most recent symptom of corruption. The crisis is that the Church puts itself, the priests, the Pope and MARY ahead of God. 

Even the 10 commandments are adulterated in the Catholic dogma. While there are 10 commandments, one is actually missing. The second commandment was removed entirely (Thou shalt have no graven images.) The Ninth Commandment was split into Nine and Ten (Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house; his wife, his goods, his ass, or anything that is thy neighbors) split so that "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" is Nine and "thy neighbor's goods" is Ten. (Brilliant lawyerly trick.)

The definition, by the way,of a graven image is three dimensions (like a statue.) This is speaking to idols and other figures worshipped in place of God. Now, think of those statues of saints, and people kissing their toes. It takes on a new dimension.

Mary is not mentioned as a minor deity or as a figure to be worshipped anywhere in the Bible. If Christ refers to her, it is as "woman" for example, when she comes to him at the wedding at Canna and he responds "Woman, it is not yet my time." Worshipping Mary or praying to her as an intercessor to Christ (who is really our intercessor to God the Father) removes us from praying to our Lord. This is why the Church has had, and has, and will have troubles.
 
  
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  From:  NRAdittos    6/23/2002 7:04 pm  
To:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    (6 of 25)  
 
  402.6 in reply to 402.5  
 
I clearly understand and fully agree with your point as I was raised in the Roman religion but now a bible believing Christian.

But in the context of "the scandal," it is because the Roman priesthood has become a heaven for homosexual men.

NRAdittos
 
  
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  From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   6/24/2002 7:32 am  
To:  ALL   (7 of 25)  
 
  402.7 in reply to 402.6  
 
While I agree with most of what has been posted here, I must point out that homosexuality and pedophilia are two different (though related) things. Both are sexual perversions (this term used here in the medical sense, that being of any sexual attraction that does not serve the interests of the Instinct of Species Preservation  someone mentioned how the Catholic bibles lawyerly twist the Ten Commandments, well, the American Psychiatric Associations infamous declaration about a decade ago that declares homosexuality to be a normal, healthy alternative lifestyle instead of the pervesion that it is is equally lawyerly with basic scientific truth [that declaration has much more to do with politics than science, of course]), differing primarily in the nature of the object of the deviant attraction.

In homosexuality, the object of the attraction is adult (or, medically-speaking, post-pubescent) individuals of the same sex. In pedophilia, the object of the attraction is pre-pubescent children (note: while the media and the law consider adult sex with post-pubescent teenagers as equally heinous, technically and medically this is not a perversion if the youth is of the opposite sex, nor is the attraction to people of that age true pedophilia, regardless of the relative genders involved) regardless of gender. A pedophile may be heterosexual when it comes to adult relationships (if they even have any adult sexual attractions, to either gender: many pedophiles do not, and have only the attraction to children as their sole sexual attraction), but prefer children of the same sex. While homosexuality is a perversion, it should not be criminalized, since it in and of itself causes no harm, even when acted upon (unless everyone did it, then the species would die out in one generation). Pedophilia, on the other hand, causes drastic harm to the child victims when acted upon.

Note also that both terms do not refer to acts, but to the attractions themselves. As Christians, we must keep this in mind, since merely being tempted is not a sin, no matter what the temptation is. Christ Himself was tempted in all things, yet without sin. If merely being a homosexual or pedophile was a sin, then Christ Himself would be a sinner, making His Atonement of no value, since He would not have been the spotless Lamb needed for the Ultimate Sacrifice! Being tempted is not a sin, but giving into temptation, to any degree (even to harboring deviant sexual fantasies) is a sin. Christ never gave into any of the temptations He was tempted with, not even to the degree of harboring fantasies about them. But He was tempted, with all of the temptations that anyone faces  yes, including both homosexuality and pedophilia. Otherwise, His Atonement could not have applied to them, since how could He Atone for a sin whose temptation He Himself did not face and conquer?
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/10/2002 4:51 pm  
To:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   (8 of 25)  
 
  402.8 in reply to 402.7  
 
If merely BEING a homosexual or pedophile was a sin, then Christ Himself would be a sinner, making His Atonement of no value, since He would not have been the spotless Lamb needed for the Ultimate Sacrifice! Being tempted is not a sin, but giving into temptation, to any degree (even to harboring deviant sexual fantasies) is a sin. 
------------------ 

By all you said then, one isn't 'being' a homosexual or pedophile until they've ACTED on the temptation. So, no one can BE one, until they've committed the act. 

BEING a homosexual or pedophile IS a sin. Temptation is not, per your words. IMO, it is the 'conceiving' of the temptation in one's mind that is sin...and the act of homosexual sex or pedophilia is merely an outward sign of what's in one's heart and mind. As you so rightly stated, that harboring deviant sexual fantasies is a sin. And so is BEING a homosexual or pedophile. 

[sorry my brain is tired...if this doesn't make sense...let me know. :) ]

Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   7/11/2002 6:39 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (9 of 25)  
 
  402.9 in reply to 402.8  
 
Wrong on all counts. Words mean what they mean, by their standard dictionary definitions, and re-defining them to mean what you want them to mean for the purposes of debate is an invalid debating tactic. 
Homosexuality and pedophilia refer to the ATTRACTION to the same sex or to pre-pubescent children, respectively. Those terms do NOT refer to any specific ACT. Look 'em up at "http://www.dictionary.com". 

It's the same as how a person can be an alcoholic without being drunk or even ever touching a drink again once the acoholism has set in. Or how a person can be a kleptomaniac (kleptomania is a psychotic compulsion to steal) without actually stealing, if they resist the compulsion, and so on. 

The term for actually having sexual intercourse with a prepubescent child is "pedarasty," and an adult who does so is a "pedarast." The term for the usual type of male homsexual sex act is "sodomy," named after the Sodom of the Bible (though the act defined by the term "sodomy" [I won't go into any more detail than that on a family board -- most adults here know good and well what it means] is not exclusive to homosexuals, male or female). 

An adult who uses a child in any manner for the adult's own sexual gratification is a "child molester" (this would include forms of molestation that the child never even knows happened: for instance, a pedophilic voyeur [a "voyeur" is any person who primarily achieves sexual gratification through visual means, including viewing pornography or trying to see people naked or watching them perform sexual acts] watching a naked child from a position of hiding). Pedarasty is a very serious form of child molestation, of course, but not the worst (the worst is violent rape and murder of a child). But molestation covers far more than just pedarasty. It does not, however, cover the mere ATTRACTION to children. Not all pedophiles are child molesters of any kind: tens of thousands of them in the USA alone NEVER, EVER molest a child, to ANY degree. 

NOBODY in even REMOTELY their right mind actually WANTS to be a pedophile. 

"Pedophile" literally means "one who loves children," but the actual meaning enforces the sexual attraction definition of "love," as opposed to the sort of love that Christ has for all of us, especially children (thus Christ is not a pedophile, even though He definitely loves children, as He also loves us all). Anyway, just as not all pedophiles are child molesters, so not all child molesters are pedophiles. Child rapists, for instance, are almost never pedophiles, but do what they do for the feeling of power over the helpless, not for sexual gratification. Many of them are people who feel helpless in their own adult lives, for whatever reason. Though their acts tend to be worse than those of true pedophiles, they are much more easily cured (to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as even a single example of a proven-cured pedophile, as in "used to be a pedophile but now is not, at all, to even the least degree [which is what the term "cured" means]" -- not by any means: not even by fasting and prayer, laying on of hands, etc.).
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/11/2002 7:41 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (10 of 25)  
 
  402.10 in reply to 402.8  
 
Hi Amy,

 

Your post is easy to read and understand and you are Exactly right!

 

Jesus is without sin! 

 

For anyone (ComalightJ) to suppose that they know the thoughts of Jesus beyond what is written in the Bible is totally ridiculous.

 

2 Corinthians 5:21

For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

 

Here is the entire Chapter 5.

 

2 Corinthians 5:1-21

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest  in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all,  then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,  yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses  unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 10:17 am  
To:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   (11 of 25)  
 
  402.11 in reply to 402.9  
 
and re-defining them to mean what you want them to mean for the purposes of debate is an invalid debating tactic. 
--------------- 

I used the words as put forth in your own post. I guess that makes YOU wrong, as well then. 


Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 10:21 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 25)  
 
  402.12 in reply to 402.10  
 
Thank you for your post. 
Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/11/2002 10:22 am  
To:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   (13 of 25)  
 
  402.13 in reply to 402.9  
 
from your post: 
I must point out that homosexuality and pedophilia are two different (though related) things. Both are sexual perversions

Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    7/11/2002 4:29 pm  
To:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    (14 of 25)  
 
  402.14 in reply to 402.5  
 
Great answer - ... I was born and raised in the Catholic church - and come from a long history of Irish nuns and priests.  I went to Catholic schools and also grew up amongst many of the clergy.  I never heard the true Word of God ONCE in my whole life until I was 22.  It was amazing the first time I heard it read - not just talked about in a 'homily' at mass.  The power of God's Word when it is unadulterated, and spoken in all its truth is mighty!  The Lord gripped me that day by His Holy Spirit, and I understood for the first time that I was a SINNER - and that I could NOT do 'good works' to outweigh my 'bad' ones!  I could no longer just 'turn over a new leaf' and start more 'good works'.... I realized I was LOST and needed a Savior.

Only One could be that Savior... it could not be Mary, it could not be all the many "Catholic Saints" through the ages... or even a priest.  The Bible told me that there was ONLY ONE MEDIATOR - (middle-man... so to speak) BETWEEN God and me... this was the verse:  "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1Tim.2:5).

When I bowed my head before the Lord and confessed that I was LOST, and could only trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on my behalf for salvation, a peace just flooded my soul.  I knew then and there, that my salvation depended upon NOT ONE OTHER THING other than the blood of Christ !  Gone were thoughts of 'rituals', 'confessions to a priest', 'belonging' to a Catholic church, etc... it was CHRIST ONLY... and HE WAS ENOUGH.

I praise God that that was now 21 years ago... and the Lord has always been faithful, a blessed Anchor in the storm of life... personally involved and interested in the most 'minute' details of my daily life - PRECIOUS SAVIOR!

 

 "...And let the peace of God rule in your hearts.."  (Colossians 3:15)

Wendy 

 

 

 
 
  
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  From:  Joanna Daneman (A1IU7S4HCK1X)   7/11/2002 5:59 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (15 of 25)  
 
  402.15 in reply to 402.14  
 
Wow! What a testimony! That IS what is missing from the Catholic and Jewish religions: both talk about confessing or forgiving sin, but neither tells how to deal with BEING a sinner. 
If you are Catholic (like my husband was raised before he was saved) you go to confession and bing, bang badaboom you are done for another week. But..then aren't you still a sinner who will sin again? 

If you are Jewish, you fast one day a year (Yom Kippur) and talk about the scapegoat of Moses, --the goat upon whose head all the sins of Israel were placed before it was set loose in the wilderness. But what about you? Will you have enough good marks in the book of Life to be saved at death? This subject is glossed over. And why do we need a Messiah? For world peace, or is it because we are sinners, and if so, didn't the Messiah come once already? 

Only reading the Gospel can answer these questions. 
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    7/12/2002 8:59 am  
To:  Joanna Daneman (A1IU7S4HCK1X)   (16 of 25)  
 
  402.16 in reply to 402.15  
 
There must be an awakened conscience by the Spirit of God in a person where they realize:  "I am a sinner".  Romans 3:23 tells us:  "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".  For a Catholic person to have this awakened conscience and to go to a priest to confess those sins there will definitely be problems.  This person is seeking mercy/forgiveness and  'justification' from God - ... but 'justification' from any earthly person/church is not enough - in fact, any earthly person/church can "use" those 'awakened consciences' of many people to their own benefit financially and also in more 'good works' for their organization.

It is only when the person with the 'awakened conscience' goes straight to God Himself, and reads and believes his Word that he/she will get deliverance.  There is "NO" deliverance in any ritual or church 'system' here on earth... 

The Lord Jesus came to SAVE the SINNER - that is why he is called our "SAVIOR".  This salvation is FULL and COMPLETE in HIM - He Himself said on the Cross - "IT IS FINISHED".  

We can add NO MORE to the Work He has done - simply BELIEVE and BE SAVED.

The interesting thing for me 21 years ago was when I first heard "believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ I thought "well, I've heard about Jesus in the Catholic church all my life... I 'do' believe in him, and I am told through the Catholic church that I will be saved ... eventually - though how and when I know not - I must just 'keep doing' in order to have that some day... (hopefully)...."  - And I reasoned to myself that surely what I believed from the Catholic church was the "same" thing?  And I told myself that ALL Christianity "is" this same thing - just believing 'about' Jesus - right?

It took time for the Spirit of God to really touch me through God's Word - and to show me clearly and plainly that I was "NOT" trusting in the shed blood of Jesus for my salvation ALONE... in other words... if there were not ONE other thing that a person could hold onto for eternal life EXCEPT the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross - IS THAT ENOUGH FOR GOD?  Who would you listen to?  The Catholic church says it is not enough.  Every other 'organized church' in mainstream Christendom today says "its not enough"....

This is why the BIBLE - God's HOLY Word is the AUTHORITY! The Bible tells us the Word of God is:  "...quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of sould and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb.4:12) 

Don't trust in an ever-changing line of 'humans' for salvation !  Listen to what the Word of God says:  1Peter 1:24:  "...all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.  The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:  But the Word of the Lord endureth forever..." 

The Key is Jesus' words to Nicodemus in John 3:  "...except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..... that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.... Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again...

...even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through him might be saved.  He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God..." (John 3:14-18)

This is not "the Catholic church .... "AND anything".... "  this is "JESUS ONLY"...

"...Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever..." (1Peter1:23)

 

Come and visit my forum:

New Creation Growth Truths - http://forums.delphiforums.com/Realife1/start

 

 "...And let the peace of God rule in your hearts.."  (Colossians 3:15)

Wendy 

 

 

 
 
  
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  From:  Joanna Daneman (A1IU7S4HCK1X)   7/12/2002 12:20 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (17 of 25)  
 
  402.17 in reply to 402.16  
 
Wendy, you have put it well. 
How can you pray to Mary (oh no) and why are the 10 commandments missing the 4th in Catholic catechism (no graven images) and 10 is split "not covet thy neighbor's goods" and "not covet thy neighbor's wife" as if they are two different things. 

The awakened spirit cannot talk to another sinning human--must talk directly to God. Imagine how Protestants who died for this must've felt when the Catholic church was the only one and no one could believe this and not suffer dire consequence.
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    7/13/2002 7:55 am  
To:  Joanna Daneman (A1IU7S4HCK1X)   (18 of 25)  
 
  402.18 in reply to 402.17  
 
Yes!  That was a terrible time - we often read with our 3 teens many of the historical accounts of the Reformation - accounts not written by Christians 'against' Rome or Catholicism - but accounts that have been compiled in books that are actual records from that time.  They are amazing and will bring you to tears!  

A funny thing about these historical records?  Every Catholic I have talked to about them - especially those who are in seminary, etc.  refuse to admit that these "ARE" historical.  They say that they have 'not heard' of this history - nor that of the Waldensians and others who were brutally tortured (and almost completely wiped out) for keeping God's Word and standing for it.  There is not even an 'acknowledgment' that it happened!  Thankfully God has preserved historical records, and He has seen fit that those peoples' words -whether by letter to their children/family/friends, or as kept in 'city documents' were preserved.

How outraged today are Jews when they hear of any in the world saying that Hitler did not do what he did???  How outraged are they when they hear people who minimize their suffering in concentration camps,,, etc.?  Well... what about what the Catholics did in the Reformation, and at other times to true Bible believing Christians? - THIS HAPPENED - and yet they admit no wrong, or try to say that true Christians killed others, etc... its a travesty of truth to listen to the Catholic church on these issues.

I have some debates on tape that I have gotten from Dave Hunt's "Berean Call" ministry and you should look into getting them (he's online at http://www.thebereancall.org/).  They are called:  

Roman Catholicism - Is it Another Gospel? - Debate between Dave Hunt (yes) and Gerry Matatics (no)

and 

Roman Catholicism - is it Evangelical? - Debate between Dave Hunt (no) and Keith Fournier (yes)

Well worth listening to!  Nice to talk to you again Joanna :-)

 

 "...And let the peace of God rule in your hearts.."  (Colossians 3:15)

Wendy 

 

 

 
 
  
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  From:  123four   7/13/2002 4:35 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (19 of 25)  
 
  402.19 in reply to 402.14  
 
Amen. When Jesus becomes our Lord, there is no other Lord in our lives. All of a sudden, we see that man's plans and organizations are nothing. We see that all of our own efforts to get 'good enough' for God or a church mean nothing. We see Him in the light of what He really is....as Lord, and the only Lord, and the only mediator. We are happy to give Him his rightful position in our hearts. 
  
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   From:  PCalltheway   7/25/2002 7:06 am  
To:  NRAdittos    (20 of 25)  
 
  402.20 in reply to 402.1  
 
There will always be apologists for the catholic church, no matter how evil the crime or how silly the rules. 
 
  
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From:  cato20   9/27/2002 7:32 am  
To:  WendyJM1    (21 of 25)  
 
  402.21 in reply to 402.18  
 
I'm not sure I agree with you on everything that's been said so far, for instance, the implication I thought I picked up that the sacraments and clergy are unnecessary if we accept Christ. However, I am all with you on what you've said in this particular post. There is a well rehearsed set of answers to every situation that a Christian who is not Roman Catholic, might bring up, and most of the answers are simply refusals to admit to historic facts. 
As I was reading your comments about the Waldensians, I was reminded of a debate we had with a Catholic defender who was all set to shoot down the "misinformation and lies" of "anti-Catholics." When the subject of the Inquisition came up, his response (with the requisite amount of haughtiness) was that there were such things but if we cared to mention them we marked ourselves as having an (anti-Catholic) "agenda" because....the inquisition gradually was "phased out." (I suppose the Holocaust was also "phased out" as the Nazi's were being pushed back into Germany proper. So, no big deal.) 

 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    10/1/2002 8:03 am  
To:  cato20   (22 of 25)  
 
  402.22 in reply to 402.21  
 
The simplicity of the Gospel message is found throughout the New Testament, but especially in the Epistles... I would have difficulty finding a place where it tells me that other than 'being in subjection to the elders' or 'those that are over me' (as a believer in the Church) finding the "clergy" we see today in churches.  No... I do not believe there should be or 'was' in the early church a 'clergy' and 'laity' group.  Scripturally there is clearly a "plurality' of men in leadership - not the 'one man show' we so often see today.  I also do not see at all the 'sacraments' of the Catholic church or other 'mainstream' christian churches being necessary for the Born-Again (true Bible believer) Christian.  Believer's baptism is 'after' one is saved,,, not a condition 'for' salvation - this is borne out in the New Testament.  The Lord's Supper is a 'sacrament' in the sense that the Lord Jesus has asked us as the Church to "remember HIM"... and "as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till He come" (1Cor.11:26).  

Galatians chapter 4 reminds us: "...But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.  I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain..."

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  .... Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace....For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH which worketh by LOVE..." (Galatians 5:1, 4, 6)

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another..." (Gal.5:13)

 

 
 
  
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  From:  cato20   10/1/2002 9:28 am  
To:  WendyJM1    (23 of 25)  
 
  402.23 in reply to 402.22  
 
Thank you, Wendy. 
The NT clearly indicates bishops and elders as opposed to laity, shows Apostles sending others into positions of authority, and outlines qualifications for ordination as bishop or deacon. To ignore the functioning of the NT church in favor of logic or a conclusion based upon part only of the NT seems a mistake to me. 

The sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper are commanded of us, so they must not be optional to those who have faith. The Supper is a memorial, yes, but Christ also described it as the reception of his flesh and blood and a means of keeping his presence with his followers. Jn 6:48-51. You may also observe there that the Jews took this idea of eating flesh and blood literally, not symbolically. Jn 6:52ff. And what did Jesus tell them then? 

Jesus said that if they did not eat of him they would have no life within them...but you are advocating doing that because, you have faith. But if you have faith in Christ as your savior, how can you disregard his words?? Remember that at the Last Supper, he also said of the holy meal to "Do this." Do we all? 

I often hear that we are freed from the Law. We are indeed freed from the legalisms and rituals of the old Hebrew religion, but this obviously doesn't mean that we can ignore any of what we've been instructed by Christ. He kept the Commandements in force, so that shows that he was not meaning for us to conclude that liberty means license, as you may be interpreting Galatians. We are called to be more as Christians than the Jews had been, to rise above merely formal rituals, to have a change of heart and live Christlike lives, not to be something freed from the moral law or less obedient to Him. 



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Edited 10/1/2002 12:38:08 PM ET by CATO20 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    10/1/2002 4:15 pm  
To:  cato20   (24 of 25)  
 
  402.24 in reply to 402.23  
 
I happily submit to 'elders' in the Church... I happily submit to the regular observance/partaking of the Lord's Supper... and I happily am Baptised (after my salvation- not 'for' salvation)...

I'm just not keeping the above because I'm under the law as a rule of life as a Christian... I'm "enjoying" obedience and submission because that is my place as a child of God in this Church age dispensation.

Unfortunately, I too have often seen the imbalances of teachings regarding 'grace' which seemingly involves a 'flesh-driven' lifestyle ... it is part and parcel of the last days we are in... but I do not throw the baby out with the bathwater, but focus instead on my Savior, and seek to walk as Paul says in Galatians 2:20:

"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me ~ and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me"

"THE JUST SHALL *LIVE* BY FAITH"... (Gal.3:11)

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God..." (Eph.5:21)

 

Wendy 

~ visit my forum - New Creation Growth Truths ~ at:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/realife1/start

 

 

 

 
 
  
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   From:  cato20   10/1/2002 5:43 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (25 of 25)  
 
  402.25 in reply to 402.24  
 
Ahh, I see. 
I don't believe I'll want to continue to post on this forum hereafter, but it's been nice talking with you. Thanks 



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Edited 10/16/2002 11:44:09 PM ET by CATO20 
  
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